Comments from keysunset
I found the comments left on my blog by keysunset so appropriate and to the point that I decided rather then to use the comment function, I would create a new post all together. Please feel free to enter into the discussion.
From keysunset:
"My Name is Legion":
Where do the Jivas come from? That was one question that came to mind.
Then in the sentence " ... we seem to have spoiled our original, real, pure, clean state .." We "seem"? Not we "have"? And if it is like a reflection in a mirror, is it a true reflection? The pure clean state would "seem" to still be there, I would think.
Yes, do post more excerpts. Very interesting.
Thanks for the questions and comments. Here are a few things that come to my mind: There is a definition of Jivatma in a previous post “Jivatma.” What Upasni is calling the Jiva corresponds to the definition of Jiv. The Jiv is like the bubbles of body, energy, and mind that apparently surround the pure, celestial, infinite, and eternal soul and gives it the sense of being finite, limited, and separate from the Oversoul (God).
You asked where the Jiv comes from. Meher Baba states in his book “God Speaks” that God in God’s most original state was without consciousness (asleep) and therefore was unaware of its own existence. When the whim to know itself stirred the tranquility of God’s deep sleep state it stirred the original state of God (God likened here to a vast infinite ocean) and caused bubbles to form around the individual drops that make-up the ocean, thus giving the drops the experience of being separate (other) than the ocean. This experience of the drop (the soul) of separateness (otherness) from the ocean is the state and origin of the Jiva.
This leads to your next question about seem as opposed to have. In fact, the drop is never separate from the ocean. It always was, is, and will be one with the ocean and only seems, due to the bubbles, to be separate, i.e. no longer original, pure, and unsullied.
From keysunset:
"The Mirror Forgets—excerpt two.”
I'm sort of lost in this excerpt, so I try to relate it to something I can understand.
In my faith practices, the more I spend time allowing interaction, and relationship, with God, the easier and more fulfilling the interaction becomes. Jesus prayed that we would all be one, and so God wants us to be one -- with each other and with Him. If He so wants it, more so than I can ever want it, then allowing that time for God brings me closer to Him and hopefully closer in aligning my wants and desires with His.
Only when you really spend time with someone in relationship, do you truly get to know them, maybe that is also true of getting to know or find yourself in the life journey.
You said you were sort of lost by this excerpt. I think this is quite understandable. When I read your comment the question for me was how were you lost? Your comment then speaks about relationships with others — that is of course how we usually see things — there are others; there is me; there is God. We want to understand the relationship — especially with God.
In this excerpt, Upasani Maharaj is speaking fundamentally about the me side of this equation. What he is challenging is the notion that the individual we take ourself to be is one. What he is saying is that we are not one, but many; many different individuals (Jivas) functioning, maybe dysfunctioning, within the same body and mind. The man said to Jesus, “my name is Legion,” Legion meaning I am not one but many. In fact, no one is running the show. Whoever steps forward says and does until another pushing him or her aside a starts to say and do. These others don’t really even know each other — don’t necessarily agree on anything. Who are these others? Upasni say they are our relatives and associates, friends and foes, various desires with their objects and the corresponding Ahamkaras (identifications and associations) pertaining to them.
It has always been interesting to me that in the three prayers dictated by Meher Baba, the first is without any reference to me or we at all. There is no I in the prayer. But the second and third, the Prayer of Repentance and the Beloved God Prayer uses the word we and not the word I. “We repent…,” “Help us all….,” it never says I. Who is this we? One can say that in saying the prayers we include the others around us, but I think it also suggests that the plural is a way we acknowledge and speak for many with us — the legion that we are.
From keysunset:
"My Name is Legion":
Where do the Jivas come from? That was one question that came to mind.
Then in the sentence " ... we seem to have spoiled our original, real, pure, clean state .." We "seem"? Not we "have"? And if it is like a reflection in a mirror, is it a true reflection? The pure clean state would "seem" to still be there, I would think.
Yes, do post more excerpts. Very interesting.
Thanks for the questions and comments. Here are a few things that come to my mind: There is a definition of Jivatma in a previous post “Jivatma.” What Upasni is calling the Jiva corresponds to the definition of Jiv. The Jiv is like the bubbles of body, energy, and mind that apparently surround the pure, celestial, infinite, and eternal soul and gives it the sense of being finite, limited, and separate from the Oversoul (God).
You asked where the Jiv comes from. Meher Baba states in his book “God Speaks” that God in God’s most original state was without consciousness (asleep) and therefore was unaware of its own existence. When the whim to know itself stirred the tranquility of God’s deep sleep state it stirred the original state of God (God likened here to a vast infinite ocean) and caused bubbles to form around the individual drops that make-up the ocean, thus giving the drops the experience of being separate (other) than the ocean. This experience of the drop (the soul) of separateness (otherness) from the ocean is the state and origin of the Jiva.
This leads to your next question about seem as opposed to have. In fact, the drop is never separate from the ocean. It always was, is, and will be one with the ocean and only seems, due to the bubbles, to be separate, i.e. no longer original, pure, and unsullied.
From keysunset:
"The Mirror Forgets—excerpt two.”
I'm sort of lost in this excerpt, so I try to relate it to something I can understand.
In my faith practices, the more I spend time allowing interaction, and relationship, with God, the easier and more fulfilling the interaction becomes. Jesus prayed that we would all be one, and so God wants us to be one -- with each other and with Him. If He so wants it, more so than I can ever want it, then allowing that time for God brings me closer to Him and hopefully closer in aligning my wants and desires with His.
Only when you really spend time with someone in relationship, do you truly get to know them, maybe that is also true of getting to know or find yourself in the life journey.
You said you were sort of lost by this excerpt. I think this is quite understandable. When I read your comment the question for me was how were you lost? Your comment then speaks about relationships with others — that is of course how we usually see things — there are others; there is me; there is God. We want to understand the relationship — especially with God.
In this excerpt, Upasani Maharaj is speaking fundamentally about the me side of this equation. What he is challenging is the notion that the individual we take ourself to be is one. What he is saying is that we are not one, but many; many different individuals (Jivas) functioning, maybe dysfunctioning, within the same body and mind. The man said to Jesus, “my name is Legion,” Legion meaning I am not one but many. In fact, no one is running the show. Whoever steps forward says and does until another pushing him or her aside a starts to say and do. These others don’t really even know each other — don’t necessarily agree on anything. Who are these others? Upasni say they are our relatives and associates, friends and foes, various desires with their objects and the corresponding Ahamkaras (identifications and associations) pertaining to them.
It has always been interesting to me that in the three prayers dictated by Meher Baba, the first is without any reference to me or we at all. There is no I in the prayer. But the second and third, the Prayer of Repentance and the Beloved God Prayer uses the word we and not the word I. “We repent…,” “Help us all….,” it never says I. Who is this we? One can say that in saying the prayers we include the others around us, but I think it also suggests that the plural is a way we acknowledge and speak for many with us — the legion that we are.
posted by Michael Kovitz at 7:57 AM
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